Locking and unlocking sft yearly


#43

Obligatory yearly claim feels way too often. Why not make it 5 years at least?
This doesn’t make it a worthy thing to leave as inheritance lets say.
Maybe some people just want to lock in and leave it for 10-20 years for their children to claim?


#44

I would say the biggest reason not to do that is because it’s not good for the Safex marketplace and ecosystem. That should be the highest priority, not the slight inconvenience of having to claim your SFX once a year.


#45

Question for @dandabek
Do you think that we would have to re-lock if we have a network fork?

Reason I ask is that the people above who talk about leaving it for 5 years etc etc would be on a totally different chain if we fork (to avoid ASICs etc, as Monero do).
In this case, there is no issue with claiming every year, since they would have to upgrade wallet anyway!


#46

Thats not correct, they would be on the forked chain just like the others.

Anyone who has investments of any sort would do regular checkups even if they are leaving them for their children in 20+ years. So if there is a need then 1 to 2 years should cover most situations and the only “loss” is the earnings from after the “keep alive” period. Even the person in coma for 3 years still gets the first year (or maybe 2 if 2 yr is used) of earnings and misses the 2nd and 3rd year. Shit happens and being in a coma in Australia for 3 years can see you lose all your superannuation to government’s coffers due to their “inactive superannuation” laws they enacted many years ago.

There is good reason to implement some sort of “keep alive” since the network relies on safex cash being used and not hoarded and/or kept in lost accounts.

If anything the investment being left is the safex token which should be increasing in value over time.


#47

I see the advantages, but 1 year is much too often.
I would see the point in claiming not more often than 3 years. And you are looking at it wrong. People who want to hoard SFX will do just that, reclaiming won’t change people’s spending habits that much.


#48

taking in a lot of comments, thank you for bringing your thoughts forward: everyone.

I would also add to this list of concerns: protocols in encryption will change. If we leave it for 20 years it could be problematic when crypto protocol changes.

I believe it is not like that; Marko is in progress finalizing: will report back to you next week on this. @markoatana


#49

Hello there,

If you want to play around with Numbers for VoM, SFX HODLers, GMV and Ghosts and see how this all plays together you can do it here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E9_NuxZQRI2kyE2EQKH2lNZsgICOVjxH/view?usp=sharing

Note: You only have to change parameters in the yellow boxes. Have fun.
Note 2: You can also play around with excessively high GMVs and see how we all go to the moon.


#50

Hi guys,
very productive discussion. I like it very much.

Idea Stefan and me like the most is that fees from trade are transferred in the “network” ownership. So, in a purchase transaction, seller would get price-network_fee output, and network_fee amount will increase some network fee balance counter (it would be not in one classic address, fees for redistribution would not be kept as separate utxo objects). On unlock, token holder will get Safex cash utxo transaction output and transaction input will be some special network fee balance input (similar to miner block reward input and output principle). There will be consensus and clear math how to calculate interest and, based on network history, every node would be able to verify that unlock/collect transaction.

I will write more on our thoughts on interest calculation/tracking of locked tokens and fees in a few days.


#51

I would try to formulate discussion most favorable solution:

  • Upon locking, tokens will take earn interest for one year (or maybe 500k blocks - around 23 months or similar)
  • If during this period fees are collected with transaction, 1 year period is restarted
  • After this period, tokens do not earn interest until they are unlocked/locked again or collect interest transaction is performed, but still previous 1 year interest could be claimed at any moment with unlock/collect messages.
  • This would certainly add computational/storage burden to nodes (because probably additional caching tables would have to be kept, keeping track of 1 year window active tokens), so we have to think carefully about technical implementation

#52

The devil is in the details !

What I mean is I get the idea, and what worries me is the how it is implemented not if.

I’ve read good ideas…
Like;“If during this period fees are collected with transaction, 1 year period is restarted”

What I did not like in the beginning of this talk was the idea that at lets say; first of April 10pm Your token get unlocked and you have to not miss that date and time or else…

Like best scenario would be something like if you are active even just a little bit on the market you don’t have to worry about your tokens getting unlocked…

I don’t think I was very clear but I hope clear enough.

I like the efforts being put in to make this not a burden and or a worry, keep it up !


#53

I don’t understand the problem, why is once a year to much?
you would have 365 days to just find 3 Minutes to make a keep alive message…

I know that people are lazy, but we are not speaking about traveling to New York and pick up the coins, but about turning the computer on (maybe on a live CD to make it more secure - that might make it 5 or even 10 Minutes, but not much more)…

It would be a big dissadvantag for the blockchain to have dead wallets collecting the coins while only a very sight advantage for some people who don’t want to lock in yearly…

And at the end I hope most Investors are also planing to USE the marketplace.
Those who really believe in the marketplace and therefore use it aswell will surly visit their wallet at least once a year since they want to use the coins to buy something on the marketplace…

I don’t want to be rude, but I would not care to much about those who do not care about marketplace anyhow, the average Safex Investor shoud be a above the average Safex Marketplace user…


#54

I don’t understand why some people panic that if this is not a yearly thing that the market is going to tank !
Some of us are tired of being a slave to the system !
ex; My drivers license (a fraud in itself) used to be once every 2 years at 80$ on my birth day.
Now they made it every year and doubled it to 160$ !
If you do the math that’s 320$, 4x what it used to be !
They laugh at us, it’s your birth day, now fork over 160$ or else :stuck_out_tongue:
So now for me asking for a minimum of 2y as a buffer for security and some peace of mind is not asking much.
Now this buffer will not be used by every body all the time !!!
It’s just going to be activated If someone loses his keys or as an unforeseen problem !
Who knows maybe that person finds his keys after 6 months ?
It’s like a safety valve that only activates when needed, but it is there.
I feel that way it works both ways.
Everybody as a safety net to prevent a loss of revenue, and also the market is protected in the event of a really dead wallet.


#55

One last thing.
Now if you reverse the thinking;

If you say 1y is preferred, why not 6 months, heck why not weekly ?

you see ?
Where is the improvement ?
What is being gained ?

I have a feeling that 2y is not a lot and that even 5y would not be a problem.
Only actual real numbers would show what the actual impact is and what is an appropriate period.
I know some have been shown already, but I mean numbers must be used to justify a short period vs a longer one.


#56

No one said it would tank but as the model has shown a serious amount of supply may be taken out of the system. SFX is highly divisible, so yes, the market would also function when 90% of the supply is taken out of the system. However, this is not something favorable.

Also, the yearly return will probably be something like 2% of the locked in worth of coins per year. So no one will become broke because of missing out some blocks of incentives. Only your passive growth of capital will be on hold for some time. In my opinion, if we compare the Safex system to any other crypto coin with a return, we are very very well off. No staking, no node, no nothing. Just one tx for claiming and another tx once in a while to keep it running. Is this really too much to be asked for?

We can consider the two extremes of the interval, never and hourly. The suitable and optimal compromise for the network and holders is somewhere in between and can be adjusted in the future.


#57

“the yearly return will probably”
I would need to see real numbers to be convinced that this is something real.
A dead wallet will only be eliminated once, (it does not come back).
If we fallow this logic eventually every body would be eliminated.


#58

we would do it weekly if it didn’t cause unnecessary strain to the network: bottom line is that the software should not take what is not yours; but it also should take into account the massive sink that dead wallets would create.

If you passed down your wallet to your kids, then they can keep the channel alive by claiming their due.

Simple as that; I think this is a feature we must have, and how it is used is TBD;

I’m also not seeing the point, why someone can’t claim their coins within 2 years: or worse, why wouldn’t you want to claim your coins within 2 years?


#59

Theoretically and practically this is actually correct if you chose the time intervall long enough. For any lost locked coin amount more than zero per year the number of remaining not lost coins is approximating zero.

0.99^50 = 0.61
So when 1% of locked SFT is lost every year, after 50 years 61% of the supply are remaining. So, after 50 years you would have 39% of fees going yearly to the abyss. Now let’s try 0.1% of lost locked coins every year.

0.999^50 = 0.95
After 50 years only 5% of fees get distributed yearly to the lost locked coins.

So what can we conclude out of this? In 50 years, so Safex still exists, the amount of not lost tokens will be extremely scarce due to its limited supply. The number of lost SFX will be countered through the mandatory relock function of SFT and the tail emission rate of SFX.


#60

“I’m also not seeing the point, why someone can’t claim their coins within 2 years: or worse, why wouldn’t you want to claim your coins within 2 years?”

That’s what I’m saying !
But the talk is about not having this 2y, which I don’t understand where the problem is ?
If it turns out that the 2y passes and it turns out it is a dead wallet, won’t the sfx go where they are supposed to go, and not be “lost” in this sink whole ?


#61

According to the system we’ve been discussing, then those sfx for 2 years will stay encumbered; but after the 2nd year no further sfx will encumber until those SFT are relocked.

So we never take anything away from anyone, but the system will stop continuing if no action was made within 500k blocks which is about 2 years.


#62

Thanks for replying Dan.

So these sfx accumulated for 2y, do they stay in limbo ?
Or are they redistributed ?

I’ll stop here, I don’t want to stay on this subject for to long.
I trust that you and your team will do this right.