Converting SafexCash to fiat as a seller


#1

Hi all,

I wanted to discuss an issue that in my view will be very important for the wider adoption of the marketplace by “mainstream” merchants, and that is their ability to quickly and reliably convert earned SafexCash to fiat, and the associated costs of this process.

Kindly note I am not talking about Jimmy selling his xbox, or the darkweb/silkroad crowd. I am talking about reasonably high volume traders who would like to tap into the ever growing crypto-buyers’ market, in addition to their business on Amazon etc…I am going to assume these sellers are primarily interested in fiat, since all their expenses (buying wholesale, manufacturing, etc) are in fiat. These sellers are merchants, not crypto-speculators.

Related to this, it is often said that one of the advantages of the Safex marketplace will be a comparatively low fee of 5% (I assume average, since it makes no sense to have same fee for everything). But, if these sellers are primarily interested in getting fiat for their merchandise, we need to consider the total cost of the overall process.

Let’s say I am a merchant and I just sold something - this is what I have to do to actually get money for it:

  • Send SafexCash to an exchange with sufficient volume (+pay a fee);
  • If SafexCash has no fiat gateways, need to sell SafexCash for another crypto (+pay a fee);
  • Sell that crypto for fiat (+pay a fee);
  • Withdraw fiat to my bank account (+pay a fee).

In addition, operational costs are likely higher, since the above steps are something I don’t have to do on a fiat marketplace. My accounting is probably more complicated too, depending on tax and other laws in the country I operate in.

There is also an added risk of crypto value change (relative to fiat) anywhere in the above chain. The more time passes between the selling and converting to fiat, the greater this risk is. And let’s not forget possible issues, such as SafexCash wallet being in maintenance preventing me from depositing on the exchange.

So as a seller, I have two options (or a combination of them): I can accept that I will operate with a lower margin in this market, or I can transfer all these costs and risks to the buyer, by incorporating them into my price. This would mean my price on Safex marketplace will be likely higher than my prices on fiat marketplaces.

In conclusion (and TLDR version) - the ability of sellers to quickly and reliably convert their SafexCash to fiat is a major risk for the success of the marketplace, and will influence the rate of its adoption. It is also an external risk, since the project has no direct control over this (assuming Safex itself will not be providing a fiat gateway for SafexCash).

So I would like to hear your thoughts about this, and maybe even a comment from Dan whether this has been considered, and is there anything being planned to somehow mitigate this risk.


#2

Yeah I totally agree. To the average user, selling an item on the Safex blockchain needs to be as simple as possible.

If the seller could somehow setup automatic fiat deposit to bank (with all the complex process hidden away), it will gear up the market for mass adoption.


#3

For me , the answer to this is simple. Firstly Ill say . I didnt buy safrx responsibly , and have since strived to understand every facet of wallet making , key storage and the responsibility that comes ,;and should come , with being 100% in control , and accountable for your cryptocurrency, ,whatever it may be. I have learned this at the cost of my safex holdings, through complacent use of this technology, and blame nobody for my loss except me. Dan Dabek can confirm this as I pestered him for ages trying to nut out my error . The reason Im telling you this is because it was through diligent research, I actually started to understand what I was a part of. Its a revolution, and the breath of fresh liberated air our world has been choking without. And THIS Project is real. When I say REAL , I mean in the sense of the true value and purpose of decentralized blockchains. The answer to your question is time. Only time and nothing else. Safex will reach adoption to the point, of you , not needing to cash in anything as it will be a primary source of payment for anything that fiat currency can buy you , except your Safex " savings" cannot depreciate through inflation as fiat currencies are, manipulated by central authority.


#4

A bit far fetched mate. Can’t see that extreme happening, and if it does it’s a long way away. It certainly could not happen without a solution to the problem raised by Boris above. No company is going to keep their sales as safex on the gamble of what you have said. A easy, cost effective way to get fiat would be required. We may believe in the project, but alot of the people that will actually be listing items won’t to the same level.

In my opinion.


#6

I personally do plan to keep my Safex Cash, because I believe it’s value will grow overtime, but businesses will have to cash out to sustain their costs.

Doesn’t next exchange have Safex/BTC trading pairs? Maybe they’ll add Safex Cash too. Then we can add a UI that automatically sells for fiat and withdraw for you, with some fees added.


#7

All opinions are accepted in a forum like this and with conversation, real world solutions will be discovered. I like to think my opinion is far fetched and as unrealistic as thinking we’ll all be talking to eachother around the world with handheld devices. For me , its not the coin, the team or the project that will inevitably succeed. It’s the technology itself that will prevail. I dream that one day Safex itself will be outdated and will morph to another level of development.


#8

I think the only reasonable Solution would be to work together with a blockchain based exchange that can implement a smart contract that exchanges directly from safex to fiat.

I like the idea that safex is not only about itself but giving value to other blockchain projects as well…

But if volume is big enough it might even be possible to put the own exchange on the safex blockchain as well… But that would be far in the future - first it would be reasonable to use what’s there already


#9

Safex might as well start it’s own exchange :slight_smile: more dividends!


#10

thats a really good idea. especially if they made it a fiat /safex exchange on a world wide basis. EG
Fiat. US, EU, Sterling, AU, NZ, Yen etc. get as many countries on board so that safex becomes a truly world wide usable currency for business’s as well as individuals, that still have to live and trade in the fiat world.
I run a small business in AU, and if that were implemented I would definitely offer safex as a payment option.


#11

Wondering if that’s the big update we’re all waiting for :slight_smile: I agree @cryptomanic!


#12

Yes, i can see that this will be a major hurdle for mass adoption, if this is to be the new Amazon (but using blockchain tech) the average joe end users will expect the same level of ease as what they are used to.

As Boris mentioned, those extra steps with all the fees to get from SAFEX Cash -> FIAT, will need to be considered for serious merchants/vendors

Does the team have any insights on how to address this?


#13

For Crypto -> Paper money will have to be a special transaction to avoid the 5% fee of simple sell of goods and services.

Of course we will optimize over time.

To address these things that is why we are hiring highly experienced people such as Medhi for advice and to contribute to the optimal user story for this product.


#14

Hi Dan,

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Could you pls elaborate on this:

“For Crypto -> Paper money will have to be a special transaction to avoid the 5% fee of simple sell of goods and services”.

You’re making it sound like crypto->fiat is supposed to happen on the Safex platform itself? First time I hear about it.

Thanks!


#15

Yes if you can sell a tea cup to someone; then why wouldn’t you be able to trade off your paper currency as well?


#16

Its a bit different. Crypto-fiat trading assumes having fiat gateways, like being able to deposit and withdraw from/to bank accounts, or link to external services such as paypal.

Are you saying this will be provided?

And if so, do you mean that someone could potentialy build such a market (crypto-fiat with gateways) on the Safex platform, or you mean that Safex Team is planning to provide fiat gateways with the Safex platform itself somehow?

EDIT: the above assumes that transfer of fiat in such a trade would be done through the marketplace. Its ofc also possible for buyer and seller to conclude a deal on marketplace and then do fiat transfer externaly (like sold items will be sent externaly by post), but I cant see this being a long-term solution for companies and high volume sellers.


#17

very good points @Boris_S. I’d be also interested to understand more about that.
I don’t see how fiat gateways could be implemented on the Safex blockchain without dealing with KYC and AML. Other options could be to exchange Safex cash for, say, bitcoin on the safex blockchain and cash out bitcoin on an exchange. this process could be automated by merchants via API.


#18

What if some SafeX holders developed their own external asset pool which was separated from the SafeX blockchain and was able to act as the defacto gateway between SafeX Cash and fiat or alternative crypto payments?

This would allow merchants on the SafeX blockchain who were willing to give up a certain level of privacy in exchange for being able to accept payment in fiat or alternative cryptocurrency the ability to do so.

Alternatively, it may be possible to use a financial service blockchain like Rialto.AI as a 3rd Party gateway to the exterior markets, both fiat and crypto.

edit: To clarify a few things I didn’t make very clear originally, I’m intending the external pool to be an option for all SafeX token holders, similar to staking “x” safeX tokens to create a title market holders could stake ‘X’ tokens to the diversification pool. The earnings of those tokens would be kept in the pool for exchange with people that didn’t have SafeX Cash to make a purchase on the network while the SafeX holders would get the Alt-Currency in exchange. Bottom line is it would serve to make the SafeX blockchain inclusive to all the people that didn’t previously have the necessary currency while also providing a service to the SafeX holders wanting to diversify.


#19

Here’s my take on this:

The KYC and AML procedures will happen as long as ‘the world’ hasn’t mass adopted cryptocurrencies. The KYC will be done on merchant store level to comply with AML procedures, not on the blockchain. This is for now pretty much unavoidable - It is unlikely a high-profile merchant switching from Alibaba to Safex marketplace will risk closure because of the non-traceable route of the funds. It seems more likely these merchants make the switch for the attractive fees. Full anonymity will only work if your wealth in crypto remains within the crypto ecosystem. Crypto-to-fiat currency transactions are a controllable exit node, which puts pretty much anybody on the centralised grid. We still have a long way to go as a crypto community before we reach full anonymity.

The Safex marketplace isn’t just a marketplace; it’s a whole economy. It needs to be otherwise the whole anonymity of the blockchain goes to waste. Full anonymity will only work when the Safex cash coin is valued against products and services, as Mr. Dabek has been advocating ever since (and that’s what got me investing in this project). If the marketplace has 1 merchant who turns over $1 billion in pre-fab housing on yearly bases, this merchant becomes an exit node to another economy (fiat currency) if he’s the only merchant on the marketplace. This merchant needs to be able to buy nuts and bolts from another merchant on the Safex marketplace. The nuts and bolts merchant needs to be able to buy their raw materials from another merchant. This pretty much is how an economy functions.

The example above still requires more merchants to enter the marketplace because an economy requires more than pre-fab housing. The employees of the three companies (merchants) above get paid in Safex cash a monthly salary. These employees become an exit node if there’s no merchant offering primary and secondary goods (following Maslow’s hierarchy of needs), and if not available the bases of Maslow’s pyramid isn’t set and ‘people’ can’t ascend to the next level. Why would one work for a company who is soon to be banned/closed because they can’t provide the source of their income? Tax services around the world have adopted the ‘guilty-until-you-prove-you-are-innocent-tactic’ - hence the tax law states that you are responsible to submit correct filled out tax forms. If there’s any doubt this was done honestly, you’ll get a fine of i.e $1 million to ‘stimulate’ you providing your wealth details (based on salary of an average Joe/Jane, not Bill Gates). Your crypto income comes from your pre-fab manufacturing employer, who on their turn can’t provide information about their customers; they will be closed. KYC procedures allow authorities/ regulators to follow the path of the funds and basically can trace anyone who ever bought a pre-fab house at that particular manufacturer. This will escalate to the bolts and nuts merchant, the raw material merchant as well and when closed, the economy fails.

As one can understand that mass adoption of cryptocurrency alone won’t solve this, but add a marketplace and it does. At present if this is done on a blockchain which is fully anonymous, questions will be raised to merchants. So therefore, these merchants (very likely) will make customers go through a KYC in the early stages of creating this fully functioning economy.

How an anonymous economy/marketplace can establish mass adoption? Simple! One finds 7 km2 of terra nullius, calls it Liberland, develop a constitution where privacy still is a basic human right (and adhere to it) and make this anonymous economy (marketplace) the bases of its economy. Besides the token and coin used on the anonymous blockchain, one also adopts several other currencies, including a national currency to remain flexible when trading around the world. One attracts major investors and explain the benefits of low fees, virtually no taxes (only voluntary) and present this as Earth 2.0 (peaceful, futuristic, green, safe, etc.). One gets recognised by other nations around the world and a local basis of Maslow’s pyramid can be established. One would ‘force’ investors/companies/visitors to deal in cryptocurrencies and that’s how local full adoption migrates slowly to international mass adoption. Earth 2.0 is born and then it’s time to grow up to Earth 3.0 and so on.

So, before you book your flight to the Safex (token) $1 party in Las Vegas (discord channel talk), think about this and realise that this flight in the future might cost you 100 Dabek including decentralised airmiles!

Therefore, hodle is my motto! (quote: Cryptoblood)


#20

To add to your point, there’s is a critical mass where we can achieve a self sustaining economy without any money exiting to fiat. Where there’s enough buyers & sellers for the same supply chain on the Safex market.

Only at that point can the system be fully anonymous. There’s just no way to be anonymous if you want to withdraw to fiat.

I’ll see Safex market as a tax haven for new traders when we have reached that level of anonymity. Which will be a bigger incentive than the fee savings.


#21

I believe we got through the bubble of crypto which a lot of experts say it’s in. Maturity of worth is being recognized and dividends of ownership is the next step beyond Fiat worth of coin in a dollar sense. Passive income is the future of crypto and what money looks at for worth of value holding above price point of coin. Crypto is a dot com bubble without a doubt but the second phase of worth is happening and spendible usecase in a platform available to spend over holding only is future. I recommend people looking at markets like Safex or things like spankchain or even Playboy adapting crypto over gray areas of internet. I would be a better that porno skyrocketed internet use just like it will crypto. Hold your addresses and hope it becomes a payable tender I think that’s the worth so those who bought crypto withcredit cards in December and ruining free market by borrowing and chasing price I hope the bigger picture is in play